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Commentary on seedings debate

  (34 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by Hi-Low
  • Latest reply from HoopFanatic

  1. Hi-Low
    Member

    Just sharing with you bloggers a story that ran in the Hawaii Tribune-Herald this morning on the state seedings flap. Sorry, it's a little long, but it offers some insights:

    Tribune-Herald
    HONOLULU — One thing became obvious during the Hawaii High School Athletic Association boys Division I and II basketball championships this week — the pre-tournament seeding formula is outdated and needs to be replaced.

    That was the talk of some coaches, media and fans as seven of the eight seeded teams fell by the wayside by the time the quarterfinals had been played. The unbalanced schedule produced some mismatches and didn’t fully reward the league champions heading into the tournament.

    For example, Big Island Interscholastic Federation D-I champion Hilo was awarded the third seed and had to play Interscholastic League of Honolulu powerhouse Punahou in its first game.

    The result?

    The Buffanblu rolled to a 76-46 win in a physical game and the Vikings were immediately knocked into the consolation bracket.

    Moanalua coach Greg Tacon watched his team win the Oahu Interscholastic Association title and then be ousted in the quarterfinals by ILH runner-up Kamehameha.

    He concluded that winning the OIA crown didn’t help his Menehune at all and they were given a tougher road to reach the state final than the OIA runner-up.

    “What’s that saying when your league runner-up has had an easier bracket in two straight years to get to the finals,” Tacon said. “It tells me that winning the OIA championship doesn’t mean much.

    “It just shows that there are a lot of problems with how they’re doing the seedings. In D-I, they should seed all the teams, 1 through 12, and then match them up. The same for D-II, 1 through 8, and let them play.”

    That’s what the NCAA does each year with its 65-team tournament. That format has proved hugely successful and showcases the entire field in March Madness.

    “If the ILH has the best three teams in the tournament, then seed them 1, 2, 3 and match them up with the other teams,” Tacon said. “The 1 through 12 seedings would be much fairer across the board and still, the best team will win.”

    The 12-team seeding format would make it more cut and dried in the selection process, and force the selection committee to do a better job in analyzing each team. Right now, the seeding meeting lasts 60 to 90 minutes with representatives from each league providing input.

    The committee then seeds the top four teams in D-I and II. The D-I top seeds draw first-round byes. But by not seeding all the teams and the committee not being provided the updated resumes of the teams, it has become a hit or miss with matching up the rest of the schools.

    For example, Big Island Interscholastic Federation champion St. Joseph should have been seeded No. 1 in the D-II tournament, based on its strong resume against not only D-II competition but also against D-I teams.

    The Cardinals (27-4 overall) had wins over OIA champion Moanalua and BIIF champion Hilo (twice), and played a strong league season, going 7-3 against D-I schools.

    However, the seeding committee opted to seed OIA champion Roosevelt No. 1 and Maui champion Seabury Hall No. 2, with St. Joseph being handed the No. 3 seed. ILH champion University was No. 4.

    Based on St. Joseph’s strong resume, there is no way that it should have been seeded lower than No. 2. But instead, Seabury Hall (10-0) was given the second seed despite playing in a weaker league than the BIIF.

    St. Joseph then had to play defending state champion Kailua in the first round. The Cardinals couldn’t overcome cold shooting to start the game and lost a close contest, then falling into the consolation bracket.

    St. Joe then closed out the tournament by beating both No. 1 Roosevelt and No. 2 Seabury Hall. The MIL champion was 0-2 in the event.

    St. Joseph coach Harry Scanlan-Leite agreed with Tacon and others that seeding all the teams is the best way.

    “I think that would be the fairest way,” he said. “Hopefully something can happen in the near future so that a lot of other teams don’t get burned.”

    Both Tacon and Roosevelt coach Steve Hathaway said they believed St. Joseph should have been the No. 1 seed in D-II.

    “I thought we would be No. 2,” Hathaway said. “St. Joseph had a great season and I was pretty sure they’d get the No. 1 seed. For some reason, that just didn’t work out.”

    Pahoa, based on playing No. 1 Roosevelt, must have been deemed the eighth team in the draw. But those fired-up Daggers shocked the Rough Riders and went on to win the state D-II crown. They deserved the hard-earned title and proved the committee wrong that they weren’t the eighth best team in the tournament after all.

    Of course, some members of the seeding committee, or coaches, or fans can say the seedings don’t matter and the best team will win. But instead of brushing aside those supporters who believe in just seeding all the teams and letting them play, the HHSAA should evaluate the old formula.

    Then, in thinking outside the box like NCAA tournament officials, the HHSAA should move ahead with a simple system that makes it totally fair across the board.

    “I think seeding all the teams is the better way to go,” Hilo athletic director Leroy Simms said. “But we’ve got to get the idea out there and get people working together. If the HHSAA really wants it to happen, they need to get behind it and submit the proposal to HIADA.”

    HIADA is the annual meeting of the state athletic directors who make proposals and discuss other ideas, then pass them along to the state’s principals, who can approve or deny the new proposals.

    “The seeding proposal has a lot of merit,” Simms said. “Hopefully someone can get the ball rolling and make this the best situation for all teams involved.”

    That’s all Tacon and a lot of the other coaches want, just a simple solution to a selection process that gives each team a fair shot and forces the committee to do their homework a little better than it did this year.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. Shaka6
    Member

    @Hi-Low

    "WOW" Why people did'nt recognized or make right ups about this last year when waiakea fell in the same situation and had to play Iolani right off the bat lost by 16 points & then had to play powerhouse punahou but waiakea only lost by 3 points.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Hi-Low
    Member

    Shaka6 -- Coach Henry, I wasn't at the state tournament last year and didn't get to see your Warriors play. So I don't know what went on with the seedings stuff and what the buzz was about.

    But this year, there was a definite buzz about changing the seedings and a story was written on it.

    Congrats to Waiakea for a solid finish, playing well in the state tournament. It's great for your seniors and the underclassmen who gained valuable experience and hopefully you guys can return next year.

    I know your JV team also lost only one game and that should mean some good players moving up. Next season should be a good one in D-I with your Warriors, Hilo and Kamehameha contending for the title.

    Good luck and stay humble.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. HoopFanatic
    Veteran

    This was mentioned for the past 10-15 years. I recall Punahou winning the #2 slot in the ILH in 2001, but St. Louis who was the ILH #3, had a easier draw. This is always an issue since traditionally the ILH is the best league.

    Punahou played Kahuku then played overall #1 seed Kalaheo. St. Louis opened up against Waiakea then played #4 seed Maui.

    This has been an issue for a while. But, are the Neighbor Island teams willing to give up their 2 seeds and an easier path to the semi's?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. bibbyboi
    Member

    Especially in D2 where there is no bye....You might as well just rank them 1 through 8 and let them play and not worry about leagues playing each other early...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. InvictusManeo25
    Member

    What is a fair shot at the title? Don't teams need to play the team that is in front of them and win. There is a lot of crying about seedings but to be the best you have to beat the best whether it is in the first round or the championship. No on ever remembers who the runner up was. I would rather play the toughest teams night in and night out and know that my team earned their shot at the title. If you make the playoffs beat who the put in front of you and be done with it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. Luna86
    Member

    @ InvictusManeo25,

    Point well taken! I agree with beating whom ever is in front of you "regardless" (1st round or championship)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. Hi-Low
    Member

    HF -- I'm looking at it from a fan's perspective and in my opinion believe seeding the teams 1 through 12 is the fairest way.

    Then if either of the BIIF's two teams are good enough to win, they'll win. Same goes for everyone else.

    The current system is too polluted and change is often good. As you say, it's been talked about for years and still nothing is done. But I think now is the time to move forward.

    At least if the coaches, ADs and other league officials discuss it, something might get done. But if they take the old school stance as usual, it could be "let's see what happens next year."

    Now is the time, let's get it done.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. bibbyboi
    Member

    @invic, I think you're missing the point...If you earned the higher seed you should get an easier opponent...that's what the regular season and league playoffs are for....

    This is the same problem i have with the BIIF playoffs...especially for D2....If you are the regular season champ it means nothing...look at Kohala...undefeated during the regular season and one loss and their out...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. InvictusManeo25
    Member

    It is about life in my opinion. You take the hand you are dealt and battle through it. Good things in life are not given to you they are earned. The harder you work the luckier you are. Don't whine about it just keep working. In the end that is all you can do.

    Thanks Luna86

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. InvictusManeo25
    Member

    If you are good enough then the opponent does not matter. The easy way out is not always the answer.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. bibbyboi
    Member

    @Invictus, teams work hard in the regular season and league playoffs to get the easier draw and instead of that happening the committee ends up ranking everyone what ever is easier to not have teams from the same league play each other...that's not rewarding hard work...you might as well have the rankings set at the beginning of the year instead so teams can choose to sandbag some games and get the easier draw...lol...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. RooseveltCoach
    Member

    Invictus is right (quick print that before I edit it. I might not ever tell you that again.lol) You have to beat the team in front of you. I think that if they are going to continue to use the seedings, then they need to change it to 1-12 and 1-8, but you still have to beat the team in front of you.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. Shaka6
    Member

    @InvictusManeo25

    I totally agree too much crying about seedings and who they will face. Just deal with the hand you are dealt with.

    And second that work hard, harder & harder to be the best and your opponent should'nt matter and it will go down to may the best team win.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. bibbyboi
    Member

    @RooseveltCoach, you have to beat the team in front of you, but Pahoa shouldn't have been in front of you and Kailua shouldn't have been in front of St. Joe's...You guys worked too hard during the regular season to get draws like that...that's all I'm saying...If you guys got to see Pahoa first things might have went completely different..At least in D1 the top seeds get a bye to gameplan better against whoever they play...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. RooseveltCoach
    Member

    You are right bibby. AS soon as i heard that we got Pahoa, I told my coaches that we got a tough matchup. No way was Pahoa the 8th best out of the D2 teams. But it happened and we didnt get it done. But if we would have won, it seemed like we would have had an easier game in the 2nd round. Didn't Pahoa blast Kapaa(sorry I never checked the scores.) As bad as we played and as good as they played, we still had a chance to win and we didnt. It is what it is. I would like to see them go back to 12 teams in the D2.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. HoopFanatic
    Veteran

    Hi-Low, I totally agree with seeding the teams 1-12 regardless of league.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. bibbyboi
    Member

    Yeah it's not as bad if you have 12 teams and the top teams have a bye..At least then there is some sort of incentive to winning your league....I would still rather have them rank 1-12 or 1-8 though...Still pissed that Kailua shot so well against St. Joe's then shot terribly the rest of the tourney...lol...If they could have just shot like they did the rest of the tourney we might have had an all biif championship...lol...but St. Joe's just couldn't get it going...

    And yeah Pahoa beat Kapa'a pretty easily...i think it was 15 or something like that...I watched that game...Kapa'a was actually killing Pahoa on the boards in the 1st half but they weren't very good offensively...trying to say it without being offensive but i think you get the point...lol..

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. 96720
    Member

    Hi-Low- Everything you saying is old news...... You are repeating what me, and I believe BACKPICK stated all along

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. hoopwaiian
    Member

    as a coach,when you make it to the big show,you and your team should be ready for anyone at anytime regardless of the seedings.every game is basketball life or death.i would love to make my own seedings but thats not real.at this stage of the season,i would welcome to play anyone and my team would be ready for anyone win or lose, that is the nature of the states. besides, if your going for the gold, your going to have to go the thru the best anyway,from a personal view as a coach,i prefer the big game. the higher the seed the better.if im going to lose,let it be from the best.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. HoopFanatic
    Veteran

    Invictus, why even have seeds then? Let's just throw all 12 teams in a hat and see how they match-up. After all, you just got to deal right?

    Even better? Let's just do a blind draw for the entire season.

    The smart rationale is to have a system which is fair, then you deal with the hand you are dealt and play the teams who you are matched with.

    If everyone used your logic, then special education and handicapped children would never have any services since they would just have to deal with it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. bibbyboi
    Member

    @HoopFanatic, exactly...What's the sense of trying to win your league or be the best during the regular season and playoffs if you are more than likely going to get screwed in the seeding...

    Again just look at the D2 brackets...No way was Pahoa an 8th seed and no way was Kailua was a 6th seed...and while we're at it no way was Seabury deserving of a 2 seed...but they were ranked as such to make it so leagues wouldn't play each other until the finals...kinda defeats the purpose of even ranking people...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. InvictusManeo25
    Member

    Once again all I hear is whining. Once you make states you have to win who is put in front of you. I could really careless if once you made states you throw the names in a hat and picked them. Play who is in front of you and win. If you get a tough opponent then so be it. As for bringing up special education come on let's get realistic this is basketball. Good try though seems to me like the team you are associated with did not get it done and now you want to change things. Fine debate it all you want and make excuses for not having an easy game.

    As I always tell the players and students that I work with don't make excuses cause they will get you no where in life. No excuses just get it done to the best of your ability and be happy you did your best to get to where you are in life.

    GAME OVER!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. HoopFanatic
    Veteran

    So anytime anyone makes a intelligent response thenit is whining?

    If that is the case, if anyone chooses to say anything other than giving a compliment of stating a fact, then it is whining? Where is the logic there?

    Whiners:

    Governor - furloughs, tax breaks, race to the top money, federal stimulus

    Mayor - mass transit

    DOE Parents - furloughs, DOE services

    Private School Parents - tuition, financial aid, scheduling conflicts

    Human Beings - anytime they ask for a raise

    So your argument is that when anything is not fair we as a race, should just sit back and take it? We should preservere? If that was the case there would still be slaves, huge social and economic distinctions, and thousands of more situations I could list.

    When your team makes states you can play the ILH #3, ILH #2, OIA #1, and ILH #1. The rest will play the KIF teams, MIL #2, BIIF #3, etc. (No offense).

    Extracurricular Activities are often an extension of the classroom and often a microcosm of Real Life. I am sorry you lack the insight and vision to make that connection or comparison.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. HoopFanatic
    Veteran

    I think it is both healthy and fair to make an intelligent response if good sense and professionalism is used. If someone does not feel something is correct, then they should stand up for themselves.

    Obviously many people feel this is an issue. That doesn't mean anything will change. But this story has been written about in the newspaper. Several prominent coaches have been quoted. It is a topic at the AD's annual conference several times.

    If everyone thought it was whining, then I don't feel the powers that be, or the coaches who represent their players and schools would take the time out to say their peace.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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