Hawaii High School Basketball Forum

http://www.meebo.com/rooms

Hawaii Hoops - Forum » High School Boys

Questionable Calls & Non-Calls

  (55 posts)
1 2 3

  1. manolo7777
    Member

    Brew, I figured out how to post a new topic. Didn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out....

    Brew pointed out the traveling calls on a quick first step. Another concern is unusual footwork, like double-stepping with the non-pivot foot.

    Regarding non-calls: The distance for closely guarded is 6 feet. The rule book also helps the officals by stating that the radius of the jumpball circle and the free throw circle are 6 feet. Yet officials usually start the count only when the distance is 1-3 feet or when reminded by a yelling coach or fan. This penalizes the defense who is working working hard to maintain the distance.

    Also, the 5-second out of bounds and 10-second back court counts are sometimes questionable. Refs need to develop more accuracy in counting the seconds. Some of these counts take an eternity. I believe the free-throw count is 10 seconds. It is an easy one to check how accurate the ref is timing this--he opens and closes his fist for each second.

    Hope some of you can point out other problems. And maybe any officials who are on this forum can respond if our concerns are incorrect.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  2. brew
    Member

    Good points manolo7777!!!!! Jus one comment on the 5 second call. I see a lot times when the defensive player plays great defense for 4 seconds, but because the offensive player starts attacking the basket some refs stop their count even though the offensive player didn't create the 6 foot space. Head scratcher!!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

  3. eastsidehoopaholic
    Member

    Back in the days there was the "OVER THE BACK" call I know they don't use this terminology anymore but the fouls still occurs. There are some huge players and some really really small players and the smaller players tend to be really fast getting a position under the basket and when they jump out those small bodies fly out of the paint "a HIT from the back"? but hardly ever called?

    Or "protecting" the shooter. All eyes follow the ball...in the air...hit the rim....and the 3 point shooter is laying on the ground from a hit.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  4. JM
    Member

    @brew

    If an offensive player beats his man off the dribble, roughly passing the defender's, nearest hip, this is also grounds to restart the count, I believe. I'm not sure if you were eluding to this, or not.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  5. manolo7777
    Member

    Good point, JM. I would like to know when the 5-second closely guarded count stops, especially in the situation you described. It should help us spectators from picking on the refs.

    I know that the count continues even if defenders switch off and continue guarding closely.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  6. JM
    Member

    @Manolo

    I don't believe it continues on if another defender switches to guard the ball handler. Ie.. off a pick. I'm not certain about this.

    What I am certain of, is that the distance, as described 6 feet, can roughly be estimated at 2 and 1/2 - 3 times a defender's arm length.

    The 5 seconds begins upon a defender encroaching this distance.

    It can be reset by any of the following:

    a.) Offensive player advancing the ball to roughly the position of the defender's nearest hip, prior to passing him (ie.. it wouldn't make sense if he turned (defender), to run with the ball handler, his hip's position, of course moving. Roughly where he, the defender is parallel to the ball handler initially.)

    b.) Picking up his dribble (at which point a new count begins)

    c.) Breaking the distance of 6 feet. Usually with a pull back dribble off of feigned penetration.

    You can also watch along with the referees, or encourage them to begin their count. They will have a bent elbow and extend their arm, each extension roughly equating to one second.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  7. Modman
    Member

    Closely guarded means the foremost foot of the defender is within six feet of the foremost foot of the offensive player.

    If the dribbler is being closely guarded, the count continues even if another defender switches (on a screen or otherwise).

    Protect the shooter even after he/she releases the ball. Never follow the ball until the shooter has landed safely.

    Push from behind on rebounds. If the rebounder secures the ball as contact occurs, throws the outlet pass, and the offense is already headed down court, this call is released. If rebounder loses the ball or falls to the ground due to a push from behind, it MUST be called!

    Traveling on quick first step. Key is to identify the PIVOT FOOT. You can lift your pivot foot to pass or shoot but not before starting a dribble. If the player catches the ball and lands on both feet simultaneouly, in which case either foot can be the pivot foot, then the player can lift either one before starting the dribble. Sometimes what looks like traveling isn't and vice versa.

    If a player is getting no pressure while bringing up the ball from the backcourt there should never be a ten second violation call unless it's blatant.

    If you took ten officials, blind folded them, and asked one to start a ten second count, I guarantee you all of them would be out of sync. Cannot help. Some purposely slow it down slightly so we don't hear whistle after whistle all game long - "ten seconds" "five seconds" "three seconds" "ten seconds" etc. etc. That would be a boring game to watch. Almost as boring as shooting bonus the whole second and fourth quarters.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  8. Modman
    Member

    Scratch the "lift either one before starting the dribble." I meant to say they must release the ball, then can lift either foot to start the dribble. You can't lift your pivot foot before starting a dribble. That is traveling.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  9. brew
    Member

    Some of them might do a better job blindfolded! Nah just joking.

    I saw a call last night where a player was going full blast down the court attacking the basket, and when the defense finally realized he was coming it was too late, but decided to try and step in front of him, not even close to being set or in good legal guarding position, but the refs decided to call a charging, which was bogus. If you have played Bball u know its pretty much impossible to get into good legal guarding position while runnig at full blast down the court with the offensive player, but some refs seem to differ. If u don't believe me try it sometime, it may change your thinking!!!!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

  10. Modman
    Member

    If the defender was running full blast and tried to stop on a dime, then yeah, it's hard to be "set." But, a defender can be moving in the same direction in front of the dribbler, and if the dribbler runs him over, it's charging, even if the defender was moving.

    What did you mean by "change my thinking?" About what?

    Posted 2 years ago #

  11. brew
    Member

    About the way some people see the call. What do you mean when u say the defender is moving in the same direction? Do you mean backpaddling or running on the side of him or running with his back to the defender? I have never seen someone able to keep up moving backwards with an offensive player moving full blast down the court. If the offensive player just runs into someone trying to retreat or running down the court I can see it being an offensive foul, but I have seen it where a defensive player is running along side the dribbler and the offensive player gets cut off by the defender going hard to the hole and gets called for an offensive foul. Just my thoughts.

    Alohjaz

    Posted 2 years ago #

  12. Modman
    Member

    I meant running in the same direction in front of the dribbler. Could be with my back to you, could be back pedaling. The dribbler has to go around me. If the defender cuts off the dribbler while running along side and isn't set, that's different. If I'm back pedaling on D and the dribbler runs me over, it's obvious.

    But, you know something Brew, sometimes explaining things back and forth is hard. Know what I mean? We could both be at the same game, see the same play, and have two different opinions. Hopefully, the officials that you see working the games have the proper training and experience to make the right call most of the time. To me, if they've been assigned the games then they must have earned it, right? What do you think?

    Posted 2 years ago #

  13. brew
    Member

    Tru dat!!!! If the dribbler just runs over the defender who is retreating, I agree with you. Offensive player does have to try and go around the defensive player. Right on Modman!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

  14. manolo7777
    Member

    Great descriptions Modman! The closely guarded definition measured by the feet--didn't know that but makes a lot a sense. I see refs who start counts when the defender extends his arm toward the ballhandler.

    Here's another question for you: How soon can a player who leaves the court touch the ball when he returns to the court? Assume he did not leave the court intentionally.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  15. Modman
    Member

    He/She can touch it right away if they didn't leave the court intentionally. Sorry took so long. Have to get ready for work 'as why.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  16. Modman
    Member

    I'll log back on once I get to work, about an hour from now. Aloha.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  17. manolo7777
    Member

    Modman: re your answer about returning to the court--as long as ONE foot is in the court? (assume other foot is not out of bounds).

    It seems the refs automatically call this a violation even if one foot is in bounds.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  18. Modman
    Member

    One foot inbounds, other foot in the air (while player is running), player is inbounds. He/she can touch the ball. I can't speak for the refs, they have the best view. Players are usually running full speed when this play occurs.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  19. bigman
    Member

    talking about the over the back the rule states that in order for that to be the calling there must be physical contact between the 2 players. in 1 of the last games i played in the refs called an over the back on me when the guy was not boxing out and all he did was jump and the ball went into my hands.

    another call i question is the jab step. a player has a good jab step but they call it a travel.

    the last stuff refs need to catch up on is fouls

    Posted 2 years ago #

  20. Modman
    Member

    @bigman, you are absolutely right. No contact, no foul. As for the jab step, again, one must identify the pivot foot. If you fail to identify the pivot foot, you have no basis on which to make a traveling call. If the pivot foot is lifted prior to releasing the ball on a dribble, it's traveling.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  21. manolo7777
    Member

    Modman: Here's an incident from tonight's Pahoa-Kam Keaau game. With the score 41-37 Pahoa leading, a Kam player gets a steal, scores on a layup, and one ref at halfcourt calls a deliberate foul. The Kam player gets 3 free throws--the first for being fouled while making his layup and 2 more for being fouled intentionally. The Kam player misses the first f.t. and sinks the next 2 to tie the score at 41. Something's not right.....

    If the Kam player had missed the layup, I imagine he would have gotten 4 free throws.....

    Posted 2 years ago #

  22. bibbyboi
    Member

    was the intentional foul a separate foul??? Like did the kam kid get fouled regularly then fouled again? If not I'm pretty sure he should have just gotten 2 shots then the ball out of bounds...

    basically it was a 5 point play??

    Posted 2 years ago #

  23. afriend
    Member

    Did the official call an intentional foul or an excessively hard foul? In either case the officials should have cleared the lane lines and administered the and one free throw. Following the free throw Kamehameha should have been given the basketball at the point of interruption.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  24. Modman
    Member

    afriend, I agree with you. After the free throw, the offended teams gets the ball at the spot of the foul. But, the whole play sounds kind of weird. I've never seen an intentional foul called on an "and one" play. And, like bibbyboi asks, how did it play out? I wasn't there so it's hard to say. But, it's a good thing the official made a call. Sounds like the kid got fouled pretty hard on his layup.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  25. manolo7777
    Member

    The intentional foul was called on the successful layup. Personally, I did not detect any excessive contact. There was a ref under the basket that did not even call a regular foul on the layup. It was a surprise to see the ref at half court rushing in with his arms crossed to indicate an intentional foul. The Kam boy got an "and 1" immediately. Then there was some confusion, but after a long delay and discussion among refs, the same player was given 2 more shots and the ball out of bounds under the basket. All 3 free throws were taken with the lane cleared.

    Posted 2 years ago #

1 2 3

Reply »

You must log in to post.